motherfuckers acting like those laptops aren’t five hundred bajillion dollars
Exactly, my last laptop was around €750 but I remember looking for a similar (in terms of performance) Framework laptop and it was around €1200 if I remember correctly, not an insignificant difference for a student.
I was really determined to get one, partially because I love the cotton candy pink, don’t judge. But now that memory and ram prices went up, it went from a premium price to absolutely insane. I’m just gonna stick with my old thinkpad another decade or so at this rate.
Yeah, I was about to say: with the prices of new machines nowadays, whenever all mine eventually conk out, I may just try to get used machines for pennies on the dollar at estate sales and revive them with Linux, haha.
Just want to say, I bought a framework 13 and it’s fantastic. Been running arch off of it for two years and it’s been a workhorse.
It was expensive comparable to a similar specced PC at the time but I make enough to vote with my wallet so that’s what I did. I think anyone who has the money but doesn’t, simply because there’s a better deal that’s worse for the environment and the makers of the item, while holding a right to repair or anti-corporate mindset are hypocritical at best.
The world gets better if we make it that way, and I see buying a framework (if you have the extra money) as a small step in a better direction.
The article is clanker slop. It’s mostly reiterative, a clear sign of clanker slop. Clankers are reiterative in their slop. A lot of clanker slop is reiterative.
That’s an excellent point, and you’re right to push back on this. Let me make an honest evaluation of the situation.
Not all reiterative spamlike garbage is clanker slop. Some of it is deliberately written to prioritize SEO over respecting the reader or producing anything of quality. Either way thanks for giving me the heads-up not to give them any of my time.
AKA some of it is meatslop
I’d say we had more meatslop two years ago than we have clankerslop today, though the clankers are gaining share…
That’s where the clankers learned it.
It felt repetitive to me too lol. I thought it scrolled back up to the top of something.
Who would have thought a more expensive, more premium product would have a hard time finding customers during a time when people are struggling to pay bills and cant even afford the non-existent dollar menu at mcdonalds anymore.
Thing is, they feel decidedly less premium (while sure as fuck being more expensive), which doesn’t help the case
and lets face it, by the time its out of warranty and old enough to need any kind of easy repair… the replacement parts are probably gonna cost as much as a newer, much more up to date laptop from another company.
Which is inherently the problem with repair ability in general.
I run into the same problem with cellphones… I could replace the battery in mine and run it for another 6 years, or I could get a much newer (used) phone for the same price, and end up with a almost 100% new battery AND much better hardware.
but parts will never be made cheap enough to be reasonable and affordable, because people will just buy the parts and assemble the product themselves. So parts have to be at least as expensive as buying the new thing, if not more expensive, to discourage the act itself.
yuuuup, that too
I wish it wasnt that way, Things should not just be repairable, they should be affordably repairable, because thats a major step towards dealing with a disposable society.
Almost nobody is willing to buy one
repairability enthusiasts have bought Framework laptops in the hundreds of thousands
Pick a lane there, XDA…
They even mention how the point is to buy the whole laptop once and then upgrade or repair it, instead of buying an entirely new laptop. Of course they’re selling fewer laptops than anyone making mediocre netbooks
But that’s not that easily quantifiable so it’s bad /s
MBAs in a nutshell
Their argument is that only enthusiasts want these laptops, but an average customer doesn’t care about them.
And I don’t see why that is a problem. If a company is doing good thing and sustaining itself, I don’t see why they will need to be the next dell, hp, or lenovo. That feels like the toxicity of “endless growth” in the capitalistic view of the world.
Not to mention in most of the place I go to, these are the most popular laptops only behind macbooks. In many situations, they are even more popular than macbooks.
I have never seen a Framework in the wild, however I applaud their approach, but even when taking repair costs in consideration, Frameworks are more expensive than simply upgrading to a newer laptop and using the old laptop for some other purpose. I can’t imagine with the rampocalypse that they easily survive, but I hope they do, I wish other manufacturers would make repair a higher priority.
I would like to offer a slightly different perspective: I believe framework is uniquely positioned to survive the ram apocalypse (at least respect to their scale).
In the sense that, framework user can keep purchasing and upgrading components, like battery, screen, speaker, hinge, expansion card, without needing to worry about ram prices, and framework can profit from these component without needing to subsidize ram prices.
That being said, as a smaller company, they certainly don’t have the same amount of bargaining power on ram as most big players, and the launch of LPCAM2 is a bit risky, since that pervents people from purchasing new ram/board/laptops given the current ram prices.
Does a new generation mobo/chip combination generally still support the older generation of RAM?
Nope, not on intel core ultra 3 unfortunately (unless you have LPCAMM2 lying around, which is unlikely), that is the risky part I mentioned in the end.
that is the risky part I mentioned in the end.
That’s what I get for only reading 2/3 of your comment before responding.
Frameworks are more expensive than simply upgrading to a newer laptop
They’re absolutely not.
can’t imagine with the rampocalypse that they easily survive
Being that you can and have been able to buy them without RAM or storage, I’d say they’re better-positioned than anyone.
Umm, not sure if you have seen Framework’s prices.
The current 13in with a weak intel processor is $1850 (and you can’t get it until October). To buy an equivalent Dell? Around $1,000 and you can get it tomorrow. The upgrade cost for the motherboard (say you want to switch to AMD), will cost you $900. For that $3k you can buy 3 Dells all with ram and storage.
And no, they aren’t positioned well without RAM as their newer ones use LPCAMM2. You don’t have that just lying around.
The current 13in with a weak intel processor is $1850
Is not at all a weak processor. Intel currently makes the best x86 mobile processors on the market. The entire point is that you don’t have to buy a whole new computer when you upgrade. You just get an updated motherboard and slap it into the existing chassis.
The upgrade cost for the motherboard (say you want to switch to AMD), will cost you $900. For that $3k you can buy 3 Dells all with ram and storage.
And all 3 will be outdated when it comes time to upgrade. And they’ll all be shittier than the Framework.
they aren’t positioned well without RAM as their newer ones use LPCAMM2
That is 1 of 5 computers they sell.
Umm that intel processor is the weakest of the bunch. The i9 version you can’t even buy from Framework currently. I get the homerism for Framework, but I guarantee you that they will be out of business within 5 years.
I don’t think you get the point. To upgrade a Framework, even if you are able to move the ram and SSD over, you literally can get an equivalent laptop from another manufacturer with new RAM, SSD and the screen, battery and everything else, and still use the old laptop. With Framework, you move parts over and slowly upgrade. It’s not sustainable at the current costing for anyone except for people who are very into home repair.
Framework is moving all over their laptops to LPCAMM2 because the newer platforms require it for faster RAM, the alternative would be soldered on RAM which defeats the entire purpose of Framework, as you wouldn’t be able to ‘upgrade’ your laptop or repair it.
That is just plain not true. If you are a enthusiast and know where to look then you definitely can find better deal than framework, but getting a dell (or even better dell?) for half of the price is simple not true.
On Dell website https://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/dell-laptops/new-xps-14-laptop/spd/xps-da14260-laptop, a core ultra 7 358H with 32GB Ram and 1TB SDD is 2749$ with no touch screen and a 2K display and windows Home.
On framework website https://frame.work/products/laptop13pro-intel-ultra-3/configuration/new, the same processor, ram, storage, with 2.8k touch screen, plus windows pro cost 2299$
Framework is cheaper than dell if you don’t try to find deals or buy older models.
If you buy older models, then framework don’t need to replace ram, I can upgrade my laptop to kitted out ryzen AI 9 for only 849$, https://frame.work/products/mainboard-amd-ai300?v=FRANTE0009 with my existing 64GB of ram. I don’t think you can get any laptop close to that quality with this price.
It’s very true. You recognize that Dell always runs discounts and the only people paying full price would be corporations or ignorant people such as yourself? Literally Dell is running a discount to bring the price down to $1,300. Wild how price inefficient Framework is, for something you can’t get until at least October, when every other manufacturer you can get now.
My anecdotal experience - my Asus gaming laptop died about 6 months ago. with a lot of trouble shooting, I determined it was most likely the mobo. I decided to go with a framework, and was able to bring over my hard drive and ram, saving me like $400.
You also likely don’t need to reinstall/resetup everything, which is absolutely painful.
Getting the framework driver’s was painful. I needed to download them over wifi, but wifi wasn’t working because it needed the driver. okay, download on another computer and install via USB, nope. USB drivers aren’t working either. I ended up spotting my hard drive into my desktop, downloading the drivers that way, and then moving it back to the framework laptop to install.
I’ve literally never had a computer need drivers to make basic USB work in the past probably 20 years. I had a bleeding edge ai 350 framework right even when it came out. Linux was a little flaky with my sound but everything else worked. Same in Windows. Maybe I needed Wi-Fi drivers, don’t recall, but I know USB worked without any. I’m really curious how you needed USB drivers of all things genuinely. I mean you installed the OS presumably from a thumb drive so how would that not work in the same os after installing? Lol.
If you have a desktop with internet connection, maybe a USB stick would suffice?
There is also USB tethering from a phone that could work.
I am not defending framework. They should try to do better (maybe windows is the bottleneck? not sure). Just offering solutions to people who might encounter this problem later.
Why does everything need to cater to the average consumer? The average consumer is a fucking idiot, especially when it comes to technology. They don’t need to sell to everyone, they just need to sell enough to keep their company running and their people paid.
I feel this way about spicy things. Everything “hot” is just hot to the average schmuck from the Midwest. Anything spicier than that gets dumbed down to become that (like taco bell Diablo sauce) or becomes hard to find.
I really enjoyed when that Buldak 2x spicy chicken raman “challenge” became a thing, because that’s some great tasting raman and more in line with the normal amount of spicy I like to eat. Now I’m back to having to just order it online again.
In my part of the world 2x is weak, the challenges were doing 3x 😂
I’ve never seen 3x, but I’ve gotten the 4x before. It wasn’t much hotter than the 2x, really.
At some point, your tongue is numb anyway.
You can order the sauce separately too. I love that Buldak spicy carbonara stuff.
I totally have some! But man, it’s kind of pricey for what it is. Not saying I don’t spend more on most of the hot sauces I buy, but still.
As an average schmuck from the Midwest. I’m sorry our weak tastebuds are fucking up your options.
It’s not your fault. The taco bell one really tucked me off, though. The first summer it was out was a limited time thing. It was actually a bit spicy. A lot more spicy than anything else a fast food chain had.
But then when they brought it back permanently it wasn’t half as spicy as it was. Taco Bell has like 5 fucking bland ass sauces now, and three of them taste about the same. What’s the damned point? FU taco bell. You could have left me with at least one option besides all your ketchup with tobacco sauce mixed in. No wonder I’ve only been there like 4 times in the last year.
Yeah, I remember thinking the diablo one was pretty hot for my taste but now it’s the one I go with. I didn’t know they changed it, I thought I might have developed some tolerance lol. It’s gotten way too expensive for what it is anyway.
Yeah. They buy cheaper stuff, and charge more for it. I can’t stand the taste of their trash burrito shells they went to. Then, they charge twice as much for just a bean burrito and give you half the filling, even though it’s just super cheap refried beans.
With laptop making, that’s a lot though. Economies of scale are a huge factor there.
It may be, but that doesn’t resemble what they said. Presumably that is a less clickbaity headline.
Comes from the corporate mindset where only growth is good. Just existing as a company that’s makes stuff for a small group of people is somehow ‘incorrect’ to these crazy people.
Exactly
So few that if you order one now you only have to wait til October to get it.
Well, what is hundreds of thousands as a percentage of the overall market? Like if they sold hundreds of thousands of grains of rice, that’s “almost nothing” compared to the rest of the rice that got sold
“Most of the market” includes the segments of commercial support contracts for office laptops which Framework doesn’t even target. Then you have the next biggest which is "go to Costco/Walmary/bestbuy and get what is on sale. So Framework simply cannot be a majority brand without those.
Among the remaining segment, e.g., developers that get to shop around and buy whatever they want? Its fairly popular.
In no context is hundreds of thousands of people “almost nobody”.
In many contexts it is.
Windows Phone sold millions of phones, yet it was almost nobody in terms of the market, and as such basically no app developers supported it.
I mean, Dell is the #3 in laptop sales and sells roughly 30 million laptops per year. So yeah, Framework is roughly 0% of market share. I know this is a very tech enthusiast heavy website, but there are certain realities that people should face. It’s like saying Nothing Phone is going to remotely compete with Apple. It’s not a fair or valid comparison in the first place. I think a more fair comparison for Framework (beyond what they are hoping to achieve) would be with a small system builder like System 76, XMG or the likes.
If I were god king of (USA/Europe/Asia…the Universe), I would subsidize repairable laptops. It would save resources in the long run, for both humanity and the planet.
All hail king SabinStargem!
I have bought and returned 2 framework laptops. They are repairable but they are also questionable build quality.
The screen on the Framework 12 is very subpar and the size and weight throw it out of being a light laptop.
Despite saying how good Linux support was running NixOS on the replacement Framwork 13 was not great either. Wireless drops and countless reports of drops on their forums with zero responses or workarounds. Most people buy replacement wireless adapters cause the one Framework ships just doesn’t work.
On top of that the laptop just feel cheap with a steep price. I have hope for the new Pro, but we’ll have to see if it’s any good because so far I am pretty dissapointed with Framework.
I would love to have a Framework laptop. Those things are awesome as hell.
Unfortunately, my very old laptop that I’ve torn down and repaired over a dozen times is still kicking. And spending $100 to fix it is cheaper than spending a gazillion dollars on a new Framework.
Honestly, why would I spend thousands on a framework, when I can spend 3x less or more, with a used thinkpad, that is already fairly repairable?
If I was rich, sure, I’d buy a framework in a heartbeat, but am not rich, yet . . . . . . .
This proves that making a product twice as expensive actually does decrease sales significantly if you aren’t Apple.
It isn’t twice as expensive though.
In Apple’s case it helps that there aren’t any competitors for them. There are very few laptops with the same fit and finish as a laptop with good specs at a comparable price point.
This may seem weird but I dislike the aspect ratio of their screens.
I have a desktop with 16:9 monitors and a laptop with 16:10.
Those are close enough that your workflow doesn’t really change. But 2:3 is different enough it makes a difference.
That and for what they are they’re crazy expensive. So I went for a Slimbook (kinda the Spanish version of Tuxedo). They’re not perfect but I found them “good enough”.
The idea of repairable notebooks sound good, except it’s done by getting filtered through the tech bro lens. Still an ultrabook, the ports must be interchangeable modules to amaze the investors/users.
Lmk when they’re corebooted.
Otherwise I’ll stick with system76 or starlabs.
Just wondering, what does coreboot do that the oss bios framework uses doesnt do?
As far as I know framework only has open source embedded controller hardware NOT EUFI.
Either way there isn’t a way to neutralize/disable Intel ME on those machines.
Insyde is a full eufi bios afaik. But fair enough, i cant comment on the intel me thing as my framework is an amd model 😅
AMD has an equivalent called PSP.
I think they’re just too expensive. It might be worth it in the long run, but a lot of people can’t justify the up front cost.
This is it average consumer laptop shops filtering by price and then value for that price if they’re tech savvy at all lol
Framework targeted a niche out the gate if they expected mass adoption in their business plan they misunderstood the market they were competing in
If we remove the capitalistic pov it’s a different game but we live in the delulu we do
From a comparison I saw, you can buy two complete laptops with the same specs as one framework. Its hard to justify an upgradable laptop at that point.
That’s the Vimes Boots economic theory right there
I was able to get a used one cheap for under 600€, used it for a while and now have upgraded the hinges, speakers, battery, keyboard and motherboard along with more RAM and a larger SSD. It’s the perfect PC builder’s laptop.
Nailed it. The cost doesn’t really make sense when you can have two functional laptops when you upgrade, so the prior one becomes a backup, a home lab server, etc. I know they have ways of making the prior pieces functional, but again at increased cost.
Never mind the fact I just plain almost never need to repair anything on my laptop because I take care not to damage it in the first place. The last laptop I had to repair anything on was one I bought in 2005, and it wasn’t even anything essential - just a pretty piece of the exterior that became unglued.
The mainboards work stand-alone. There are free STLs to print a case for it or you can buy a case from them.
Basically replacing the mainboard gives you another small PC to use as a desktop/living room/server device. You obviously still need RAM and storage though.
I own a framework 13 and I replaced the mainboard once (due to an issue, they replaced it) and it took less than 10 minutes to swap. It’s expensive for what it is, but in support of their vision I was willing to pay premium for it.
They also argue that they need these high prices due to low volumes with the goal of bringing prices down to be more competitive eventually.
I haven’t needed to buy a laptop since the company existed. If I did they’d be a strong contender
I have but I didn’t consider them because retailers don’t carry them and I’m not buying a laptop I’ve never tried typing on to make sure the keyboard isn’t ass.
I own a 13" AMD version, the keyboard is very good.
I’ve heard all sorts of bad advice on various keyboards/hardware from other people. I don’t trust anyone’s judgement but my own when it comes to that.
The trouble with other people’s recs is taste. What you think is an awesome keyboard I might hate and vice versa, your right you really need to test drive it urself to decide. Otherwise it’s like buying a car you have never sat in sight unseen and praying it’s as good as people tell you.
Yeah. I get the feeling most people are willing to settle for a lower standard or are looking for different things in a product than I am, if they’re even critical of the things they buy at all. It explains how enshittification has been so successful.
Framework’s keyboard is widely considered to be one of the best laptop keyboards available on the market, based on loads of reviews and personal opinions shared online (and my own experience).
Probably not relevant right now, but in the worst case, if you got one and hated it, they have a 30-day return policy.
