This isn’t a capitalism problem. It’s an authoritarianism problem. The only thing about this that relates to capitalism is that it’s a private company setting up the cameras instead of the state doing it.
The problem of mass surveillance is coming from people who want control. The fact that they are capitalist this time is coincidental. It could just as easily be a theocratic government or an absolute monarchy that wants the level of control that mass surveillance can enable.
Authoritarianism means very little, it’s such a broad term that doesn’t localise the origin of repression. Instead of considering the root of the problem here, which is capitalism/private property, you look at a feature or a phenomenon.
Yes, necessarily so if we were to take the epithet that is “authoritarianism” seriously. We just don’t talk about what women in marriage have to put up with (the old adage of not biting the hand that feeds one), how we treat children and how accepted it is to subject people to dismal working conditions. It’s considered normal, this is the status quo. You need to enforce property laws with deadly force, suppress movements and the organic formation of opinions and views, in order to for the system to keep functioning as it has.
Just to recheck, you’re saying that Scandinavian countries are authoritarian?
Yes of course I am. I am Scandinavian. Have you ever travelled across the Öresund Bridge in a bus? They stop 50+ passengers for upwards of 45 minutes, pull out all the black and arab people seeking work, as well those who look particularly poor, subject them to highly invasive searches and then send some back if they feel like they can get away with it. Or take entering Gothenburg’s harbor by ferry. The send a military ship out to escort your boat. They don’t really have to do this, but they do it to really show you who is the boss/who has authority. When you arrive, something similar to the bus example happens. Take the all the black people into special rooms, make people walk past drug sniffing dogs (that have incredibly high rates of false positives, but that doesn’t matter because it’s about creating anxiety), and metal detectors. it’s not just designed to scare minorities, it’s also meant to incite fear in regular people.
Also, search SÄPO, they are so lacking in transparency that even Swedish government media can’t deny their lack of oversight and unbridled power.
And, you realize that some capitalist countries with private property and capitalist markets, in practice approach anarchy?
I do. Anarchy of production is the chief reason why climate change can’t be battled by capitalism. I am not an anarchist, I don’t know why you are bringing this up.
I didn’t say anything about the authoritarian personality and I don’t really care that some people have figured out something they view as being integral to comprehending society. Honestly, I find life under the systems people like Fromm consider least authoritarian, think Sweden in the 70s, to still be be very brutal towards the masses.
But you know what, I believe your conclusion is also party correct. People with an “authoritarian” streak can be used to guard a worker’s movement.
This is absolutely a capitalism problem. It’s what happens when you let corporations do whatever without consequences as long as they can afford the bribes and in turn get contacts on taxpayer money.
True, but I could also see an authoritarian “communist” government doing all the same surveillance bullshit.
So, while it’s a capitalism problem this time, I don’t think it’s a capitalism-exclusive problem. It really is, at its root, an authoritarianism problem. This time, you’ve got capitalist authoritarianism, but next time maybe a different flavor.
You can’t get rid of authoritarianism the same way you can’t get rid of stupid. Some portion of the population will always be the bottom of the bell curve.
What you can do, however, is redirect it into something positive. For example, Japanese social structures are pretty fuckin’ authoritarian. Most people wouldn’t even dream of littering.
I’ll tell you more, the UK is one of the leading countries in cameras per capita, either installed or accessible by the authorities (not sure about exact details). They built government surveillance without any communism in sight.
(Leaving alone that China’s state capitalism is the opposite of communism.)
“Decentralize the mass surveillance!” cries the anarcho-libertarian. “Big Government is monopolizing all the cameras! We should let the market decide who gets spied on!”
That’s a gross over simplification that ignores the influence of the insurance industry shifting the baseline of public surveillance and crony capitalism that infects our municipalities.
This isn’t a capitalism problem. It’s an authoritarianism problem. The only thing about this that relates to capitalism is that it’s a private company setting up the cameras instead of the state doing it.
Capitalism is about gaining all power (capital). Its end goal is complete surveillance. 2+2 = 4
Yes, 2+2=4, but so does 1+3, 0+4, 1.5+2.5, etc.
The problem of mass surveillance is coming from people who want control. The fact that they are capitalist this time is coincidental. It could just as easily be a theocratic government or an absolute monarchy that wants the level of control that mass surveillance can enable.
Kill the authoritarians. Only way.
Authoritarianism means very little, it’s such a broad term that doesn’t localise the origin of repression. Instead of considering the root of the problem here, which is capitalism/private property, you look at a feature or a phenomenon.
So every capitalist country is authoritarian?
Yes, necessarily so if we were to take the epithet that is “authoritarianism” seriously. We just don’t talk about what women in marriage have to put up with (the old adage of not biting the hand that feeds one), how we treat children and how accepted it is to subject people to dismal working conditions. It’s considered normal, this is the status quo. You need to enforce property laws with deadly force, suppress movements and the organic formation of opinions and views, in order to for the system to keep functioning as it has.
Just to recheck, you’re saying that Scandinavian countries are authoritarian?
And, you realize that some capitalist countries with private property and capitalist markets, in practice approach anarchy?
Yes of course I am. I am Scandinavian. Have you ever travelled across the Öresund Bridge in a bus? They stop 50+ passengers for upwards of 45 minutes, pull out all the black and arab people seeking work, as well those who look particularly poor, subject them to highly invasive searches and then send some back if they feel like they can get away with it. Or take entering Gothenburg’s harbor by ferry. The send a military ship out to escort your boat. They don’t really have to do this, but they do it to really show you who is the boss/who has authority. When you arrive, something similar to the bus example happens. Take the all the black people into special rooms, make people walk past drug sniffing dogs (that have incredibly high rates of false positives, but that doesn’t matter because it’s about creating anxiety), and metal detectors. it’s not just designed to scare minorities, it’s also meant to incite fear in regular people.
Also, search SÄPO, they are so lacking in transparency that even Swedish government media can’t deny their lack of oversight and unbridled power.
I do. Anarchy of production is the chief reason why climate change can’t be battled by capitalism. I am not an anarchist, I don’t know why you are bringing this up.
Meh, there’s some smart people that have come up with a pretty clear understanding of authoritarianism.
https://theauthoritarians.org/
But your conclusion is also partly correct, the authoritarian personality is not inherently bad, they must first be weaponized.
I didn’t say anything about the authoritarian personality and I don’t really care that some people have figured out something they view as being integral to comprehending society. Honestly, I find life under the systems people like Fromm consider least authoritarian, think Sweden in the 70s, to still be be very brutal towards the masses.
But you know what, I believe your conclusion is also party correct. People with an “authoritarian” streak can be used to guard a worker’s movement.
Capitalism is pretty inherently authoritarian. The boss calls the shots.
This is absolutely a capitalism problem. It’s what happens when you let corporations do whatever without consequences as long as they can afford the bribes and in turn get contacts on taxpayer money.
True, but I could also see an authoritarian “communist” government doing all the same surveillance bullshit.
So, while it’s a capitalism problem this time, I don’t think it’s a capitalism-exclusive problem. It really is, at its root, an authoritarianism problem. This time, you’ve got capitalist authoritarianism, but next time maybe a different flavor.
You can’t get rid of authoritarianism the same way you can’t get rid of stupid. Some portion of the population will always be the bottom of the bell curve.
What you can do, however, is redirect it into something positive. For example, Japanese social structures are pretty fuckin’ authoritarian. Most people wouldn’t even dream of littering.
True, but you can get rid of hierarchical authority itself, leaving the authoritarians nothing to work with. Ask your local anarchist how.
China already has this sort of system completely built out.
Yeah, it’s creepy. There’s almost no secure place in the world at this point.
I’ll tell you more, the UK is one of the leading countries in cameras per capita, either installed or accessible by the authorities (not sure about exact details). They built government surveillance without any communism in sight.
(Leaving alone that China’s state capitalism is the opposite of communism.)
In 2023, China had over 700 million cameras tracking the population.
That’s one camera for every two citizens.
But yes the UK is also building a surveillance state.
But is the technology developed by the state or are they contracting it out to a private company?
How does that matter?
Both are fucking horrible.
But also, China does both. In 2023 they had over 700 million cameras tracking people.
State: communist.
Private: capitalist.
End result: authoritarianism.
“Decentralize the mass surveillance!” cries the anarcho-libertarian. “Big Government is monopolizing all the cameras! We should let the market decide who gets spied on!”
That’s a gross over simplification that ignores the influence of the insurance industry shifting the baseline of public surveillance and crony capitalism that infects our municipalities.
Capitalists have been trying to build the panopticon since the first factories.
Yes, that’s how it’s implemented under capitalism.
States further into their authoritarianism don’t need to bother with middle men and cutouts and shit.
They just put up the cameras.
That’s how they get away with it too. Worst constitutional loophole ever.