Hey jas sh.itjust.works actually been defederated with many major instances yet or are there just murmurs? I’m confused what happens because I’m on lemmy.ml and I still see sh.itjust.works content, but then I’m actively subscribed to some communities there. My understanding with defederation is that you no longer see anything from a given instance in the “all” section vs the “local” section (where you only have seen stuff from your home instance anyway). That makes sense, but what about my subscriptions. If I’m actively subscribed do I still get content from defederated instances or is that all just gone?
No no, nothing happened. It was all angry discussion by crowds who didn’t know anything. The problems were solved very fast and no one ended up unhappy except for the troll.
It sucks because Sh.itjustworks is generally a pretty good place, people trying some good things like the Agora. Then I take a look a few minutes later and it’s like the Donald Glover pizza meme all over again.
the whole de-federating thing is seriously turning me off to the whole concept of lemmy, it’s like little dictators with their sceptres cutting off entire communities from each other. it’s a major flaw and I hope it gets addressed as lemmy/fediverse evolves, or else it’s not going to work
it’s a major flaw and I hope it gets addressed as lemmy/fediverse evolves, or else it’s not going to work
Defederation is an important tool for admins (e.g. if a server full of nazis appears, we want it to be defederated immediately).
Hopefully admins realise over time it’s stupid to defederate over trivial stuff, and it causes users to revolt and possibly a decline in your server’s activity.
Also, make sure you complain to your admin if they do this, or just leave and go to a new server.
(e.g. if a server full of nazis appears, we want it to be defederated immediately).
This seems obvious to everyone else, but not to me. Why would we want to do that instead of just dealing with them one by one when needed or just individually blocking communities/users?
I’m extremely uncomfortable with an authority deciding for me what I may see in my feed and what not.
No one is stopping you from joining a server full of Nazis.
Those openly avocating violence and cruelty towards others who are being neither violent or cruel aren’t “just another reasonable point of view that deserves to be heard”The problem for those operating a Lemmy instance is that they are hosting copies of the content of all federated instances.
So if one instance is filled with illegal content, the admins of all federated instances must remove it on their instances to avoid law enforcement kicking down their doors.If there is too much illegal content on one instance to effectively moderate manually, defederation is the solution.
This is beside the fact, that some might have their own additional non-legally mandated requirements for content they host on their platform.
The problem for those operating a Lemmy instance is that they are hosting copies of the content of all federated instances.
If that’s genuinely the way it works, it seems really dumb.How would you do it?
Fetch data from instances you’re trying to access, rather than hosting everything on all servers. That seems like a quick way to get half the fediverse defederated from each other.
That’s exactly what happens. But you have to store the fetched data on your instance if you want to display it there.
If Nazi content is something you don’t want blocked, then I recommend you find a different instance because not many people will share your values here.
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Why would anyone want to stay connected to a Nazi community, except for the obvious reasons?
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Nothing prevents people from just creating new accounts on another instance of lemmy - ban evasion is trivial.
If you’re uncomfortable with this feel free to set up your own server.
Nazis aren’t the point. Censorship is. Hard to see how a community that requires an individual federated server for everyone to avoid censorship is going to eventually come close to the popularity of Reddit.
If reddit had had /r/NationalSocialism and /r/ChildPornography and refused to ban them, I don’t think it would’ve become as popular as it is.
It called them /r/jailbait and /r/the_donald.
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Authority deciding what you see? You mean like Reddit does? With Lemmy you can always change servers, heck, even set up your own server with your own rules.
Yes, exactly like Reddit does. How does a federated system manage when everyone is required to run their own server to avoid censorship?
Not everyone is required to do so. You just need to find a server that aligns with your values. Communities always censor content, one way or another. Call it moderation. Otherwise, you end up a piling piece of burning trash.
our worse, like 4chan
Why would we want to do that instead of just dealing with them one by one when needed or just individually blocking communities/users?
Who would be “dealing with them one by one”? People seem to keep forgetting that lemmy, both the code and the infraatructure, is developed and maintained by hobbyists, not by a company.
I’m extremely uncomfortable with an authority deciding for me what I may see in my feed and what not.
You should really think about this, in my opinion, entiteled attitude… You are not the one paying for the server, you are not the one running the server you are certainly not the one who will have to deal with potential legal actions if illegal shit is going on on your instance…
You are not entiteled to any of this… You don’t have to pay in any way for any of it and lemmy admins don’t earn any money from you…
Imagine not only getting into trouble for a hobby, but have random people complain about “authority” because you don’t want to/can’t deal with potentially illegal shit on your server…
If you are so concerned about “authority” and about “what you see on your feed”, start your own server and federate with whoever you want, or start a server that is collectively owned and controlled by it’s users or something like that… You can very very easily do that…
Obviously the admins need to deal with content that’s illegal. I’m not talking about that.
Spreading Nazi propaganda is illegal in some countries… The amount of moderation necessary would be unsustainable. And Nazis tend to propagate violence anyway, which is illegal in most places.
And why is it so important to allow Nazis to “share their views” on your platform anyway? What possible benefit could this bring to a platform?
This whole comment is the reason Lemmy won’t take off
Yep, I feel the same way. Feels like I’m missing out on a bunch of stuff.
thankfully, that isn’t really the case on your (which also happens to be my) instance.
we’ve been blocked by precisely one actual instance - the predominantly German-speaking feddit.de, for having open signups, which i’m sure is something we could hash out with them in the future. (technically there are also instances that block us which are run by single persons for their own use. in effect, this amounts to a single user blocking us for themselves, which obviously is fine).
we ourselves have defederated from precisely one instance - lemmygrad.ml, the political one for authoritarian communists. this was probably done to avoid unpleasant political spam posts from showing up. personally, i think we could get rid of even this one block as the users can decide whether to block that instance for themselves or not; i might post asking about it later.
and most importantly, the admins here have explicitly stated that the policy is to avoid defederation at all possible avenues. this statement more than anything really made me feel like i chose the right instance.
FMHY for the win!
we’ve been blocked by precisely one actual instance - the predominantly German-speaking feddit.de
Which also was my first home instance until I noticed that a comment chain I accidentaly started using another lemmy instance was not visible when looking at the thread though feddit. Not even my own comments made with an instance that wasn’t blocked. Turns out the user I answered to start that chain was a member of your instance and thus the comment and everything following it was not visible for feddit users.
Which is why I’m a full time lemm.ee user for now bc at the time it had 0 blocked instances and was blocked by 0 too^^
and most importantly, the admins here have explicitly stated that the policy is to avoid defederation at all possible avenues.
That’s the policy of lemm.ee too. It has 34 blocked instances right now but those are all suspicious ones that formed and got >30K users within a couple hours and no activity at all.
But ultimately, new users shouldn’t have to worry about such things, which is why I can’t see Lemmy growing as a whole with the tools available now.
Everywhere it says it’s not relevant where you sign up because you can see all the stuff from other instances anyway, but that’s simply not true, it DOES matter where you sign up and even after that you could be forced to change your instance when the defederation roulette starts spinning again.and most importantly, the admins here have explicitly stated that the policy is to avoid defederation at all possible avenues.
So you would prefer massive dictators with a profit motive instead? Because that’s the alternative you are advocating for.
The entire point of federation as a tool of decentralisation is to address the issue of Spez, Musk, Zuckerberg and so on. Massive corporate dictators of the internet.
The solution is to split up the massive dictators into lots and lots of smaller ones, who can federate with who they want to in order to make a bigger space, and ultimately provide you with the choice of which approach you like better. It ultimatley allows all of these spaces to shut out corporate advertising as well because if McDonalds ever makes a fucking instance everyone will defederate that shit to get away from the advertising immediately.
If you like the mega dictators better. Reddit is over there. I assume you do not, because that’s why you left it.
Don’t show your ass like this. Don’t do the “oh you like waffles so you hate pancakes???” meme. I didn’t say or suggest a single thing you just said.
What I actually DID say is that allowing
modsadmins to defederate entire communities is stupid. If you want to talk about THAT, fine.EDIT: admins, not mods, my mistake, thanks god
I didn’t say or suggest a single thing you just said.
Of course you did. You said that the defederating thing turns you off the concept of Lemmy, and you advocated for it to be not-a-feature.
You are advocating for centralised mega platforms owned by mega dictators.
The are two options. Centralisation, or decentralisation. That’s it. There is no magic alternative. This is the material reality that exists.
If it turns you off Lemmy, then what you are advocating for is centralisation. The literal polar opposite of what the entire fediverse aims to be and exists to solve. There is not an alternative and there will not be. You either get one owner of a super site or thousands of owners of minisites that federate in order to be emulate a supersite without the oversight. That’s it. There is no third-way.
Criticizing and mentioning flaws of a system doesn’t automatically make a person against the system.
Accepting the current flaws and then working on their solutions is the way to make Lemmy better for everyone.
The system IS federation.
It’s not criticising flaws in a system, it’s literally asking to dismantle it entirely. You can’t have the fediverse or decentralisation without federation. That’s the issue.
You either have centralisation. Or you have decentralised federation as a means of providing the size that centralised social media can reach without the centralisation part.
The crying about it being a flaw is just people whining about wanting what they’re used to with absolutely no differences. They need to be told to simply get used to it with none of this babying. Their crappy suggestions and complaints are antithetical to the entire goal of fediverse.
All of them will go back to reddit and then find themselves back here in a few years when it’s the content slop machine that they want it to be. They don’t actually care about the goal, they just want slop and are unhappy that their are complications about getting their slop.
What happened?
You will find information in the comment thread. Many explanations of what happened with link sources.
Yup, felt pretty stupid after I found it
thank god someone else is finding humor in this too. i laughed at the sheer absurdity of half the comments in that thread. people can really easily lose all sense of proportion
Any link to that thread? I’m out of the loop
https://lemmy.fmhy.ml/post/265796
here you go, keep in mind that it’s 2 days old so probably best not to comment on it and shake up a pot that’s now settled. just sit back, read and laugh instead
(wish i could give you a properly formatted link that would load the post in your instance instead of booting you off-site, but as of now i don’t think there’s syntax that lets you share proper links to posts, like there is with communities. does each instance just number every post on the network by itself? so far that’s what it’s been looking like to me)
no problem, the connection between instances are still kinda awkward anyways, I won’t be able to see whole thing. Thanks for the link, I’mma grab a popcorn real quick.
