my industry - firefighting and software engineering for healthcare is, particularly quite different than being a part of an organization that has a monopoly on violence. additionally, that same org has me living under capitalism, from birth. so try again with your reductio.
the adults who volunteer to join that violent organization are certainly much more guilty than others who choose not to join.
your attempt at this false equivalency is just trollish and serves to show exactly how much you enjoy the taste of uncle sam’s boot.
And what of the firefighters and software engineers (and healthcare professionals) who just so happen to be doing those things in the military? You doing them in the civilian sector is somehow a morally superior choice? You as a firefighter are quite literally in the business of protecting the property of capitalists. You are just as much a protector of capitalism and the capitalist class as any person in the military. I’m not going to assume you’re an American, but needless to say your involvement in the healthcare industry is arguably just as problematic as military service if you are.
That doesn’t even get into your consumption habits. Do you consume animals products? How about products that are constructed with exploited labor, even slaves? Child labor? How about the products you consume that are irresponsibly produced from an environmental perspective?
But, hey, I’m glad you’re able to live with the choices you’ve made. We all must. It’s just a shame that you’ve deluded yourself into thinking you’re somehow more innocent than others based on those same flawed choices.
And what of the firefighters and software engineers (and healthcare professionals) who just so happen to be doing those things in the military?
They are contributing to military tasks the goal of which is subjugation of non-white people. Programming avionics so that planes can bomb Iran, fighting fires on carriers, etc. is unambiguously evil.
You doing them in the civilian sector is somehow a morally superior choice?
If we exclude doing such things for NATO military and espionage organisations, then it almost always is, yes.
You are just as much a protector of capitalism and the capitalist class as any person in the military
Lol no. If you can’t see the difference between stopping fires from killing civilians or destroying buildings/non-military equipment, and directly contributing to things like subjugating Iran or defending invaders of Iraq and Iran from retaliation, you need to go to primary school or something.
your involvement in the healthcare industry is arguably just as problematic as military service if you are.
How so?
Do you consume animals products?
This is probably the closest you have made to a compelling point. However, in this case you would have to attack the people involved in meat production first, rather than people who merely consume those products.
Same goes for the other points in that paragraph.
Also, you do have to contend with the fact that those people were enslaved because of NATO’s military.
In the sense that any task done in the military is contributing to a military goal, sure. I’ll remind the Goodwill employee that they’re contributing to military goals the next time I’m shopping there. (Whether you’re aware of it or not, Goodwill runs a lot of the logistics operations for at least RTC Great Lakes.) By that same logic, however, pretty much everyone in capitalist societies are also contributing to the “subjugation of non-white people.” There are measures that can be taken to reduce one’s problematic footprints, though. I just find that most people prefer to cast stones at others instead.
Firefighters are compelled to protect the private property of the capitalist class. I’m failing to see how the military is somehow directly responsible for the person I was originally responding to living under a capitalist system whereas they are not. Mind you, non-capitalist communities have firefighting and even militaries. Neither occupation is inherently capitalistic.
Regarding the healthcare industry in the US, it’s a profit-seeking venture. Anyone who participates in it voluntarily (e.g., doing software engineering for healthcare companies) is directly involved in one of America’s most backwards sectors of the economy. It’s a system where people are financially ruined when they’re the most vulnerable or even denied treatment for the purpose of enriching the healthcare sector’s capitalist class.
Why would I have to attack the meat producers first? Few meat producers are producing meat for the sake of producing meat. They produce meat because there’s a demand for it. It’s simple really: no one wants meat, no one produces meat. If you mean to say that most people lack the moral fiber to make ethical decisions when there’s an unethical choice they enjoy, then I agree. We collectively suck when it comes to being responsible individuals. Likewise with products produced using child labor and such. In some instances, all someone can afford is unethically produced products. Most people don’t even bother to put in the effort, though. Sacrifices are hard, and no one wants to make them. It’s an unfortunate reality.
By that same logic, however, pretty much everyone in capitalist societies are also contributing to the “subjugation of non-white people.”
Nowhere near to the same degree, however. Your attempts to equate these things is extention silly.
I’m failing to see how the military is somehow directly responsible for the person I was originally responding to living under a capitalist system whereas they are not.
Do you also fail to see how the USian soldiers are responsible for, for example, the tortures at Abu Ghraib? I guess you don’t see that as any different from being a cashier in the US in terms of awfulness.
Mind you, non-capitalist communities have firefighting and even militaries. Neither occupation is inherently capitalistic.
However, non-capitalist societies of today are not responsible for the colonial subjugation of the Global South. Not sure why you are ripping them into this.
Regarding the healthcare industry in the US, it’s a profit-seeking venture. Anyone who participates in it voluntarily (e.g., doing software engineering for healthcare companies) is directly involved in one of America’s most backwards sectors of the economy.
Ok? Do they do anything comparable to bombing schoolchildren in Iran? What would be the good outcome of none of those people participating in the USian healthcare system?
Why would I have to attack the meat producers first?
The fact that you blame consumers of meat and the like - and not the producers, i.e. the people actually doing the bad thing - for the production of meat and similar things is also very silly.
Also, do you agree that the rest of the world has a moral right to kill NATO’s ss troopers, or do you think it would be great if I kidnapped, tortured and killed your family for money?
So we agree that this is a matter of degree rather than kind. As for the degree of difference, I fail to see much of one between the non-combatant service member and, say, the average US citizen who pays no mind to how their lifestyle and choices impact the world.
When you speak of the US military, you are speaking of an institution. It is an institution that you and I likely share similar grievances about. The difference is that I don’t attribute moral condemnation on every person who just so happens to be in the military. Likewise with every person who just so happens to work for Amazon, Google, Walmart, etc. The cook serving on a military base is about as responsible for an atrocity that occurs in the middle east as you are responsible for whatever negative outcomes are associated with the way you earn and spend your money.
Are you trying to ask what would be the good outcome of a massive labor strike in the US healthcare industry? Quite a lot of good could come from that. But, yes, profiting off the illness of children and sending their families into financial ruin is, once the scale is put into play, in my opinion, about as morally problematic as dropping bombs on children.
I get the impression you’re once again trying to excuse yourself of moral blame by saying the producers of animal products are significantly worse than the consumers. Much of the labor in animal “processing” facilities in the US comes from undocumented immigrants. Much of foreign meat comes from impoverished laborers or even slaves. Consumers of such products are directly funding those atrocities. And, yes, that also makes voters responsible for the atrocities that are perpetuated by their democratically elected governments.
And no, I don’t believe you have a moral right to be a terrorist.
my industry - firefighting and software engineering for healthcare is, particularly quite different than being a part of an organization that has a monopoly on violence. additionally, that same org has me living under capitalism, from birth. so try again with your reductio.
the adults who volunteer to join that violent organization are certainly much more guilty than others who choose not to join.
your attempt at this false equivalency is just trollish and serves to show exactly how much you enjoy the taste of uncle sam’s boot.
And what of the firefighters and software engineers (and healthcare professionals) who just so happen to be doing those things in the military? You doing them in the civilian sector is somehow a morally superior choice? You as a firefighter are quite literally in the business of protecting the property of capitalists. You are just as much a protector of capitalism and the capitalist class as any person in the military. I’m not going to assume you’re an American, but needless to say your involvement in the healthcare industry is arguably just as problematic as military service if you are.
That doesn’t even get into your consumption habits. Do you consume animals products? How about products that are constructed with exploited labor, even slaves? Child labor? How about the products you consume that are irresponsibly produced from an environmental perspective?
But, hey, I’m glad you’re able to live with the choices you’ve made. We all must. It’s just a shame that you’ve deluded yourself into thinking you’re somehow more innocent than others based on those same flawed choices.
They are contributing to military tasks the goal of which is subjugation of non-white people. Programming avionics so that planes can bomb Iran, fighting fires on carriers, etc. is unambiguously evil.
If we exclude doing such things for NATO military and espionage organisations, then it almost always is, yes.
Lol no. If you can’t see the difference between stopping fires from killing civilians or destroying buildings/non-military equipment, and directly contributing to things like subjugating Iran or defending invaders of Iraq and Iran from retaliation, you need to go to primary school or something.
How so?
This is probably the closest you have made to a compelling point. However, in this case you would have to attack the people involved in meat production first, rather than people who merely consume those products.
Same goes for the other points in that paragraph.
Also, you do have to contend with the fact that those people were enslaved because of NATO’s military.
In the sense that any task done in the military is contributing to a military goal, sure. I’ll remind the Goodwill employee that they’re contributing to military goals the next time I’m shopping there. (Whether you’re aware of it or not, Goodwill runs a lot of the logistics operations for at least RTC Great Lakes.) By that same logic, however, pretty much everyone in capitalist societies are also contributing to the “subjugation of non-white people.” There are measures that can be taken to reduce one’s problematic footprints, though. I just find that most people prefer to cast stones at others instead.
Firefighters are compelled to protect the private property of the capitalist class. I’m failing to see how the military is somehow directly responsible for the person I was originally responding to living under a capitalist system whereas they are not. Mind you, non-capitalist communities have firefighting and even militaries. Neither occupation is inherently capitalistic.
Regarding the healthcare industry in the US, it’s a profit-seeking venture. Anyone who participates in it voluntarily (e.g., doing software engineering for healthcare companies) is directly involved in one of America’s most backwards sectors of the economy. It’s a system where people are financially ruined when they’re the most vulnerable or even denied treatment for the purpose of enriching the healthcare sector’s capitalist class.
Why would I have to attack the meat producers first? Few meat producers are producing meat for the sake of producing meat. They produce meat because there’s a demand for it. It’s simple really: no one wants meat, no one produces meat. If you mean to say that most people lack the moral fiber to make ethical decisions when there’s an unethical choice they enjoy, then I agree. We collectively suck when it comes to being responsible individuals. Likewise with products produced using child labor and such. In some instances, all someone can afford is unethically produced products. Most people don’t even bother to put in the effort, though. Sacrifices are hard, and no one wants to make them. It’s an unfortunate reality.
No. I’m compelled, by my own judgment and heart (as what i do is volunteer), to save lives and then protect property.
also, a working class homeowner is not part of the capitalist class. they are part of the exploited class.
a business owner, sure. know what my first priority is? searching for and removing the workers first.
you have some reading to do, buddy. i might suggest “The Jungle” first.
Nowhere near to the same degree, however. Your attempts to equate these things is extention silly.
Do you also fail to see how the USian soldiers are responsible for, for example, the tortures at Abu Ghraib? I guess you don’t see that as any different from being a cashier in the US in terms of awfulness.
However, non-capitalist societies of today are not responsible for the colonial subjugation of the Global South. Not sure why you are ripping them into this.
Ok? Do they do anything comparable to bombing schoolchildren in Iran? What would be the good outcome of none of those people participating in the USian healthcare system?
The fact that you blame consumers of meat and the like - and not the producers, i.e. the people actually doing the bad thing - for the production of meat and similar things is also very silly.
Also, do you agree that the rest of the world has a moral right to kill NATO’s ss troopers, or do you think it would be great if I kidnapped, tortured and killed your family for money?
So we agree that this is a matter of degree rather than kind. As for the degree of difference, I fail to see much of one between the non-combatant service member and, say, the average US citizen who pays no mind to how their lifestyle and choices impact the world.
When you speak of the US military, you are speaking of an institution. It is an institution that you and I likely share similar grievances about. The difference is that I don’t attribute moral condemnation on every person who just so happens to be in the military. Likewise with every person who just so happens to work for Amazon, Google, Walmart, etc. The cook serving on a military base is about as responsible for an atrocity that occurs in the middle east as you are responsible for whatever negative outcomes are associated with the way you earn and spend your money.
Are you trying to ask what would be the good outcome of a massive labor strike in the US healthcare industry? Quite a lot of good could come from that. But, yes, profiting off the illness of children and sending their families into financial ruin is, once the scale is put into play, in my opinion, about as morally problematic as dropping bombs on children.
I get the impression you’re once again trying to excuse yourself of moral blame by saying the producers of animal products are significantly worse than the consumers. Much of the labor in animal “processing” facilities in the US comes from undocumented immigrants. Much of foreign meat comes from impoverished laborers or even slaves. Consumers of such products are directly funding those atrocities. And, yes, that also makes voters responsible for the atrocities that are perpetuated by their democratically elected governments.
And no, I don’t believe you have a moral right to be a terrorist.